Thanks to all involved with this. Looks like it'll be pretty neat. :)

Special thanks to (the Man in the) Masque for the work getting the gears and levers put together.

It does look VERY cool. I haven't been able to comment nearly as much I have wanted due to technical diffs. that made me so, so sad. (Dare I say, depressed?) But now I'm cured and I think that this rendering and all the possibilities, present, future, heck, even past (perhaps best) are thrilling! Bill, and everyone who works so hard on this with you, I salute you.

I have a friend whose finance is a social worker for a school in the state. The social worker group has been recently disheartened looking at the results of their project on reducing bullying in schools. Being an engineer (problem solver) has led me to think about that topic a lot lately, and how to apply what I have learned from Steven den Beste, and our illustrious Bill Whittle and my understanding of engineering control systems of what could be done to address the situation. Seeing as how I was a meek child at school, and how I was bullied, and what effects it had on me and my growth, this topic has really hit home. I think the basic ideas that I have come to seem (to me, at least) to have some potential to really help in this area.

My proposal would to be to write an article from an engineering/control system perspective that would provide one explanation of what the basis of bullying is, why it exists, and what needs to be done to reduce the problem. Unfortunately I'm not a great communicator of the order of a SDB or a BW. But do to the importance of the subject and its broad applicability (international relations), I would like to give it a try, and if all that comes out of it is to increase wise discussion on the subject.

Ron - WI

Aaaannnd - We're off!

Ron - WI: Sounds interesting & maybe like something you and the SW group could co-author! I'd say: Get with them, knock the whole proposal together, and dump it on Bill's head!

- MuscleDaddy

Would anyone be interested in a post about homeschooling? I am homeschooled, so I am something of an expert about it. Just wondering.

Would anyone be interested in a post about homeschooling?

Many people would be -- especially from the student's viewpoint. Just covering the issues of how you were "socialized", where did the "curriculum" come from, how much work it seemed for you're teachers (parents?), and what was the interaction with the local school district and state, if any, would interest a lot of people.

this is my first post, but i've been visiting the site VERY regularly. I was initially introduced to this website through www.FortLiberty.com. there used to be an awesome forum there, but something happened and the webmaster decided to throw the whole idea away. this is one thing i'd like to see ressurected in ejectia. maybe like a mix of wikipedia, facebook/myspace, and a forum. everyone could have their own main page and could link to other people and essays. then the forum could be used for debates and open questions. overall, i guess i'm not sure what ejectia actually is?

H-ey, those upper clouds are gonna obstruct our view of the stars m-an.

It's okay with me if it is with you tho...Bro... Brother...

Brother of another mother ;~)

I have a feeling that the lower clouds will magically part about the time there are buildings in the valley below worth looking at. Think "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag".

I'm digging the mountains and clouds renderings thus far, Bill. They're cool and crisp.

Holy...WoW!!

I want to know when do we get to virtually climb
the 'orthanc' to see what our 10,000 foot
perspective will be!

That sure looks like home to
me Bill.
Thanks to all of you working in the back office.

1. Yes, I love the current "sky" skin.
2. "Skin" choices later - you guys are AWEsome!
Thank you all for the work that I know is going on behind the scenes.
3. My books - Christmas will arrive when Christmas arrives. No worries.

To the chatterers (?) hanging out - I am swamped, but reading every single post - maybe this weekend will get to comment on some of the past two weeks that have just taken me to a higher plain. One in particular - The Monster - THANK you for introduction via link to speech at Naval Academy by Heinlein. I am light-years behind the reading of most of you but my list grows happily long. DQ no ly - I finally got the recipe for the Friendship Cake from Dear ol Auntie. If you want can e-m, or post here later, or wait till we have a "kitchen" - you choose.
All have a great weekend and again - behind the scenes folk - thank you. This project is going to be (that word again) - AWEsome!

jayh801, it's impossible to say today what it will be, but there will undoubtedly be similarities to the GOOD parts of all of those things, with some differences so as not adopt the BAD parts.

But a lot of that will have to wait until we get some basic infrastructure in place.

The Monster
Dang! I have a copy of that around here somewhere. Something to do with jewelers rouge and somnambulism if I recall.
Thanks to all involved for the new screenshots. Way cool!
Svin

Ah, but the altitude will be all that much better for clear skies stargazing. Less atmospheric interference. And imagine how clear the moon will be. Stunning...

I like the current look. I wonder what the arena will look like, that's where I'm waiting for. Article proposals are all well and good, but my ability to control any eloquence I might have is limited, heh. Anything I'm good at (whatever that may be) kinda gets adapted for use on the fly.

Is it just my monitor or does the port tower lean about 2 degrees to starboard and the starboard tower lean 4 degrees to port?

I know it's nitpickin' but after 30 some years in the trades I confess to being positively anal about plumb, level and square.

does the port tower lean

That's because we know an upcoming earthquake is fix it up.
It's in the script, m-uhuhaa-a . . . ~~~~

is gonna fix it up

Somebody slap me!

MuscleDaddy 2:31 PM

That's an interesting idea, I hadn't given it much thought, since they live a long way away, and most social scientists don't speak engineering (and I certainly don't speak social scientist/liberal very well). I will float the idea, and see what comes of it. At the very least I would ask them to proof read / critique it.

USBeast,
Did you just say that you were plumb anal?

Hee! Hee!

I like the sky city! Who knows, when other skins become available, I may change now and then, but so far, I definitely favor the sky city.

does the port tower lean
Yes. As a matter of fact, both towers lean just a little. Blame The Forthcoming Statue.

I think perhaps those towers aren't really leaning, but only appear to be so because of the sloped ground they're on.

The towers are definitely leaning. But it's Dougman's fault.

The name "Sky City" has a lot of competition. In my neighborhood, there is "Acoma Pueblo" Sky City which claims to be the oldest continuously-occupied city in North America, with habitation dating to the 12th Century or earlier. The number of continuous occupants made it down to about 12 some time ago, but the 2000 US Census lists 2,802 inhabitants of the Acoma Pueblo and [part time residents living on] off-reservation trust lands.

Are you sure the towers aren't
leering at Dougman's forthcoming statue?

Hey Y'all,
I been known to list port and starboard(sometimes at the same time!).
Nuthin wrong with that.
Svin
Oh Yeah,
Hey Bas!

BW,
You can make it a jungle, island, desert, mountain, valley and all that without a bunch of skins.
Just make it a big island with all those environments.
Simple.
What would REALLY be interesting is what you put in the Sky.
;-)

No D4, I said "positively anal" and I meant it. When it comes to plumb, level and square, "anal" is a positive thing.

The proper meaning for "anal" in this case is "meticulous" and I am that. When I find myself no longer capable of being that, I will sell my tools and run for office.

USBeast,
So true. Plumb,square and level. I have rebuilt so many houses where the previous occupant had no clue, it wore me out.
The devil is in the details.
Best Regards,
Svin

Well, I am excited enough about all this to stop lurking! Hello all!!
First thing I thought of when I saw the tower on the splash page was, Space Elevator.
Dana

Don't panic!

The towers aren't leaning. It's a view looking upward from just barely above the cloud level. When you look up at tall buildings, they appear to get closer together, just like any other parallel lines do. (Think of railroad tracks converging at the horizon here.) When you see this with two eyes, your depth perception triggers your brain to compensate for it, but in a flat picture, you don't have that cue.

Don't be surprised if another picture, taken from a slightly higher vantage, with a 'longer lens', reduces that effect somewhat.

Thanks Svin.

I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm supposed to be packing for the big family vacation.

See you all in a week...if I survive.

If I don't, build Ejectia plumb, level and square.

My best to all,

Ye Olde Beastie

Ok, Beastie.
I get it.
No puns on plumb, level or square.

That's gonna be hard but the quatroman can sink to the challenge.

Embrace Chaos for me!

Hi, Dana.

I hope those towers have navigation lights on them. Don't want the FAA to make you take 'em down.

I love the buildings! I'm alread having a hard time trying not to speculate what the blue sphere at the base of the center building is all about. My theory about the leaning buildings is that it's a function of the wide angle lense effect of the modeling software.

And is that lichen I see peeking out from the rocks that aren't fully covered by snow? Where's TattoedInt when ya need him?

One of basic needs of any enterprise is quality control. My idea is to start with articles and reports from outside sources that are of interest to people doing posts, and fact check them. Then if that proves workable to fact check the articles written for this site. I want to be a member of the team that fact checks, I am a ack of all trades master of none, but want to participate.

My plan is for there to be a "bin" where I can pick up a piece to be fact checked make a report alot like footnotes, even to putting notes in a revised version and then placing it in the next bin. Someone else can pick it out of that bin and fact check it again, placing it the "2 fact check bin" and if it is controversial it can be done multiple times. People would be able to read the original and see the revised "fact checked" versions. The hard part is just checking the facts and not fisking the article, but it is something I would like to do.

Thank you for your time.
Blaine

Ron - WI: I was bullied in school (very small guy then, you wouldn't believe so now), so I know what it's like. My boys, however, I have had to try to make sure they didn't BECOME bullies, because unlike me, they are friggin' giants.

There have been a lot of studies done, especially in the '70s and '80s, which tended to indicate that bullies typically suffered from insecurity, and turned to bullying to feel better about themselves. Do you have a different theory? If so, I'd really like to read it. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of faith in the Public Schools coming up with programs to deal with that kind of problem.

Good call Blaine, the power of the net is the army of highly motivated fact-checkers. No reason not to combine it with a good fisking of a poor set of 'facts'.

daddyquatro - The visual I got from, "plumb anal" was really bad. eeewww...

Dougman, since you asked for it: *Slap*! Just remember, it's your fault!

Left Coast Bruce - Don't worry, I'm sure Bill included whatever technology necessary to keep aircraft at bay, er, um, away.

I was on the receiving end of bullying myself, and it was my experience that the minute you stand up to them, they crumble. That says insecurity to me, Wayne B.

These lofty highbrow ambitions are all well and good, but we need to propose another structure that hasn't yet been ventured.

We need a suitable undersea grotto, with portcullis, from whence in time of great need we can UNLEASH THE KRAKEN.

Very pretty! Could use a dragon :)

On Forgetting the Obvious by Robert D. Kaplan.

I just came across this essay and thought it would fit very well with the ideas and philosophy here.

I built a house with a two foot level, and it shows (grin). But I'm still living in it after 15 years, so what the hell. "Embrace the chaos." -D4... at least it's not Pee-Wee's Playhouse.

BTW plumb refers to a radius. A tall enough building will reveal what observation of smaller increments does not resolve - that "straight up" from a given point on a sphere is unique and necessarily diferent from "straight up" even just a few feet away. The plumb-square-level we find so comforting hides that from our apprehension because our senses don't spontaneously resolve angles so small. Unless we are appreciating a well-turned calf.

If you can frame a 24x32 foot garage within a half inch of the drawing, you're a seasoned professional. Tolerance in this sense refers to variation within acceptable limits. But truly plumb and square? Heisenberg giggles. In my struggle for accuracy and perfection I am constantly learning to let go when the nit resists picking.

I think the skins are great. I love the feel. I also believe it reflects the way I feel about this idea.
One does not light a candle to hide it under a basket, but rather to put it on a table for all to see. It reflects the self esteem we should all have for wanting this. Simply choosing to be who we apparently are. (Reading posts here proves this to me.)

The contrast in acceptable tolerances between the carpentry trades and say airplane manufacturing are worlds apart. Hammers and nails don't work out if you're building the Hubble telescope. Thank goodness we have tools of such fine resolution. But even with Hubble we experience a limit, a range of error. That appears to be the case in all human endeavor.

Wow, looks great already...

I'm excited!

Good morning.
Chai Indian Spice is todays
brew.
We had mucho rain again during the night, hope we're not growing mold!

I was the recipient of unwanted attention (bullying) in school.
I rewarded my attention giver by putting her in hospital.
Of course I paid by being kicked out for 3 days, to which my father told the principal we all have the right of self defense.
Fighting should be like shooting, taken seriously.

The discussion on plumb-square-level brings to my mind the need to include context. My experience as an electrician is that trying to induce plumb and level after the fact in a construction which can tolerate a certain lack of plumb-square-level while still maintaing functionality is frustrating at the very least. So, in context, what would happen is, after the building was built we would run steel conduit in ten foot lengths and discover running the conduit straight and level, attached to a building which is neither inevitably looked terrible. Yes, our conduit was straight and level but viewed against the existing structure it looked awful. In context, our work looked crooked, not the structure, so it was necessary to compromise, to adjust our perfectly straight pipe to match the existing (not straight) building. This happened often enough that it became clear we would rarely be able to do our work to the standard we wanted, without it looking bad, in context. One of the more difficult aspects, installing lights on a large ceiling, was to attach the lighting so that when you looked up, the lighting looked square and straight. Snapping a line over a span of more than 20 feet was difficult, but a deviation of little more than a quarter inch, which didn't seem like much up close to the ceiling, was glaringly obvious when viewed from the floor. Finally less expensive lasers solved this problem, by allowing us to run straight over the entire span of the buildings ceiling, while still allowing deviations to compensate for the inaccuracies of the wood construction.
Perfection is the goal, but I'll settle for mere excellence.
Hi daddyquatro.
Dana

Dana, well put and thanks.

@ WayneB from June 15, 2007 9:49 PM
>There have been a lot of studies done, especially in the '70s and '80s, which tended to indicate that bullies typically suffered from insecurity, and turned to bullying to feel better about themselves. Do you have a different theory? If so, I'd really like to read it. Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of faith in the Public Schools coming up with programs to deal with that kind of problem.

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the feedback. That's the general idea - from a control systems standpoint it is about control (insecurity is about the belief of (or the fear of) not being in control, and is obviously related). Its a fine point, but I think it is an important one. I don't believe that self esteem is crux of the problem, Control is. When we have control we are happy, when we don't we are not happy. I pretty sure that it is just as simple as that. When the bully gets rewarded with attention, and people telling him he is good, and his behavior is hurting people, that just reinforces his belief in the soundness of his tactic.

I agree with you that most public schools are probably way too liberal - which is why I suspect these social workers are disheartened. Which is exactly why I'm interested in writing this article, and why I'm not particularly interested in working closely with them (they are probably not interested in a conservative engineers viewpoint). However since their lack of results has got their attention (real feedback can be a bitch), this would be a good time to throw them a life preserver. Maybe someone will be willing to grab on and try to understand. Even just one would be a start. Every engineer knows that the ultimate feedback of a design is - "does this work?" Engineering can be very stressful, because when a design doesn't work, everybody knows who was in charge of that aspect of the design.

Plumb and level. Wow! don't get me started. I spent 43 years in the machine trades, many of which were involving very precision work. Many years were also in the toolmaker section of that trade, which included various dies, molds, forming tools, jigs, fixtures, etc. The tolerances needed in the machine trades seem nearly impossible to people in other trades.

The truth is that even within those trades, there is a huge difference in the requirements of tolerances. I have been called a liar by some when telling of some of the tolerances that I have worked in. The truth is that in earlier years, I worked in shops with tolerance ranges running as high as +-.015. In these same shops some of the tolerances were as close as +-.005. I thought that was tight.
Then I entered some of the more precision machining shops that held tolerances to +-.001. I thought I had arrived, until I found that there was far more precision than that, such as +.0001-.0000. To shorten the story, I have worked in tolerances as close as +.000050-.000000 in jig boring and jig grinding environments which required 68 degree climate control 24/7. I have been called a liar, to my face, when talking about this. Some here may doubt it, but I know there are others lurking around Ejectia who are experience in this.

Some of the inspection tools used in these environments are calibrated to closer than .000007 from the US bureau of weights and standards.

I said all that to say this. There is no such thing, in any environment that we know of, that is perfectly plumb or perfectly level. Nothing perfectly round or perfectly flat. It's all in the eye of the beholder, and this is governed by said beholder's type of training and developement.

I finally learned to relax about the whole thing. That happened after age 55, when I decided to build a house. I was tremendously hindered, and couldn't hardly do it, because my habits pressured me to try to make a precision thing out of my house. Overkill cost me tremendous amounts of time and money. A skilled home builder could have done it far better than I could, at a lot less cost.

There are several lessons here that I had to learn the hard way. We are all necessary, and our combined knowledge can make Ejectia great.

Wow, there are a lot of masons here.. :)

Hi Otto. Thank you and you are welcome.

I was bullied as a kid because I was the smallest kid in my class, was very geeky, and didn't know when to back down from a fight (I refused to let the bullies win). You are of course right that bullies suffer from insecurity and there is no way that the public school system can fix it. I got my bullying to stop because I went into the martial arts and learned how to fight - once you put a few of them down the rest leave you alone.

Does that fix the problem, no. What does fix the problem (in my opinion) is a combination of things, First: Parents need to care enough to be involved in their children’s live and hold them responsible for their actions. We have such a victim culture going on that now even the bully is a ‘victim’ so we should feel bad for him.

Second: The entertainment industry (which I will soon be part of) needs to quite using the excuse of “It’s just a game” “It’s just a movie” and take a little more responsibility on what they are making. Grand Theft Auto is a prime example of making an irresponsible product. So are most gangster rap albums. Anything that feeds of the bottom of society is not good. Our kids need to be taught to think critically about entertainment, politics, cultures, and ideas. That comes from education.

Finally: Education that is REAL - it is very easy for the education system to promote 'feel good' fixes about self esteem, multiculturalism, and how everyone is special, but kids aren't stupid and telling them how special they are without requiring anything out of them helps lead to an attitude of entitlement. Instead the education system should focus on the basics of education - history, math, languages, arts, and physical fitness. These five areas would give kids the opportunity to find where they fit which would help reduce insecurity because they would have a sense of belonging.

History - every child in this country should learn in-depth American history from middle school through high school. How can they appreciate what they have if they know nothing about it? This would also cover our government system and legal system so that they will be informed enough to understand how it works and how it came to be. There should also be world history and then electives of regional history.

Math - Math should be taught from a practical sense. If a child has no idea what .0625*(x*2) =15 is good for then math needs to be explained in a way that make him think of it as money. You have 15 dollars, each item cost 2 dollars and then tax is 6.25% - how many items can you buy - make it so they UNDERSTAND how is useful and relevant.

Languages - Primarily English. Computers have ruined many peoples ability to spell. I don't know how many times in my job I have seen accident descriptions like this "Hurt riht rist falen on ground" which when translated to English is "Hurt right wrist falling on ground" I will completely ignore the grammatical errors and lack of punctuation. The ability to communicate effectively is paramount to the survival of any society and the manipulation of language is the greatest weapon that those who are malevolent can use. I read a report that said that 80% of American males don't read a book after they graduate from high school - 80%! It also said that over 59% of households don't have any books in them - including a bible. We don't need computers in schools to teach kids how to read and write - we need books and paper.

Arts - all of them. Music, Drawing, Painting, Poetry, Creative Writing, even Philosophy and Religions. All of these are essential to developing the child’s sense of self and many of them are not offered in schools any more due to budget cutbacks. In the area I live in, they cut the arts budget because they wanted to give the money to the football team which essentially told the artists that the jocks were more important.

Physical Fitness - All grades, every semester. Split the classes into different levels so those who are athletic and gung ho can do their thing and those who are on the low end can be brought along at a slower pace. But everyone should be involved in some form of physical fitness. In fact, this should be done in all classes - three levels of classes, one for the slower kids, one for the average kids, and one for the very smart kids.

In the end, all of these can be used to bring kids along and allow them to learn about themselves, as long as teachers don't try to indoctrinate the kids into a particular viewpoint and the kids are allowed to explore while at the same time are required to actually do work and pass exams that are more than multiple choice. It also requires parents who don't allow excuses for bad grades and demand better from the schools than what they are getting now.

Sorry this is long, I've taught martial arts and my mom was a teacher. It infuriates me that I have met people who have no idea that there was a Korean war, thought that Vietnam was in the '80s, and thought that the three branches of government were Republican, Democrat and Liberal. Yes, all of these have happened to me. These same people though knew all of the judges on American Idol and who won over the last 5 season.

I LOVE the idea of a bullying entry. Also homeschooling. We have one on stone soup cooking that I like. But in order to make these happen, you're going to have to send a two paragraph proposal to library@ejectia.com!

We want to see EVERYTHING! The more varied and diverse, the more interesting the library is.

Also, regarding the 'skins' issue raised earlier... I guess I wasn't fully clear, because as suggested, there will eventually be many different 'locales' on the giant island nation of Ejectia (which is smaller than New Zealand but which should give you an idea of variety).

'Skins' is more of a technical term to describe the fact that a Sky City Library, a Lagoon library, a Forest library, etc -- will all take you to the same library, but the presentation of the files will look different (even though they are the same files). So it's not 'just' a skin -- it really will be seperate communities and you will be able to inhabit whichever one you want.

Keep the entries coming!

Bill, I have spent so much time reading here now I forget even how I linked to you. Oh, that's right, it was Allison Taylor's essay on The Atlasphere. http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/070615-taylor-ejectia.php

THANK YOU, Bill, for the oxygen.

Instinct:

The ability to communicate effectively is paramount to the survival of any society and the manipulation of language is the greatest weapon that those who are malevolent can use.

When one is incapable or unwilling to identify concepts in a non-contradictory manner, his thinking will be fuzzy at best. I do not think it's coincidence that academic achievement in the US is lowest in the subculture that uses slanguage including such mind-benders as 'bad'='good'. A mind that has to constantly expend effort to reconcile such contradictions is far less likely to have enough spare capacity to master high-level thinking.

I think we've all felt the frustration of understanding something quite well, but not being able to communicate it. What we do not understand fully, we have no chance to communicate. (If you prefer, you must be able to communicate the idea to yourself before doing so to another.)

When people say I'm a fuddy-duddy because I reject neologisms that contradict established meanings, I realize that they've been so brainwashed by pop culture, teaching that such rigor is "uncool", that they don't realize that by embracing sloppy language, they're consigning themselves to sloppy thinking.

On bullies, from The Devils of Loudon:

"There are many people for whom hate and rage pay a higher dividend in immediate satisfaction than love."

Well said T Monster,sounds like you are describing some of our finest politicians, some of whom deserve a hot tar and feathering at the very least. So what do we do with pols that have loose lips during a time of war and offer aid and comfort. I mean is it too late really? Personally I don't think it is too late, but we near the edge of the precipice. I would recommend Grassfire.com or Firesociety.com to try to fight on and I am sure there are other .coms out there. that we could link to or recommend. Is this part of what we want to do here?
Later W

Leftfoot, the main purpose of Ejectia is to make us better citizens, who in turn can make our neighborhoods, cities, states/provinces, and nations better, and therefore make the whole of Civilization better.

It seems to me that something a good citizen of a republic should do is vote in a way that will improve Civilization as a whole, and his nation and any subdivisions in particular. While I don't think Ejectia will get directly involved in partisan politics, I won't be at all surprised to see some Ejectians who have gotten personally involved to share their experience influencing governments at various levels.

Then people can use that to do things like help get people on the local school board who will fight the dumbing down of government schools. I also expect resources supporting the people who have made the economic investment of sending their kids to private schools, or home-schooling them.

The principal reason I'm interested in Ejectia is precisely that I think that the big picture isn't about winning a Presidential or Congressional election, a theatre such as Afghanistan or Iraq. Those are just battles in a far larger struggle, which has been going on about a dozen millenia.

It's about building up the people who "get it" so they can have as much influence as possible over those who don't get it yet, and defend against the outright enemies of civilization. It's about getting as many people as possible to understand why certain basic principles are fundamental to the function of an economy above (if you're lucky) subsistence hunting and gathering with simple hand-made tools, and that every time they are violated, the fabric of society is weakened.

If we do that, the elections will take care of themselves.

Maggie | June 16, 2007 7:59 AM

Re: mucho rain

Are you in Texas?

Re: hospital

You GO girl!!!

I saw a few articles the other day by Rob Bussard of interstellar ramjet fame, talking about his new fusion power generation idea , and his trials with getting govt funding. It made me think of the idea of perhaps some part of ejectia could be visualizing what mankinds journey to the stars will look like - sort of building our own mythology for the 21st century.
Since that seems non sequitor, here's why...

Back in High School when I saw 2010 Odyssey 2, I knew I wanted to be John Lithgow when I grow up- the guy who built Discovery.

I have been a tinkerer with machines for a long time. Muscledaddy and I spent most of our youth under the hood of one car or another or in teh shop making something.

I was a nuclear engineer on carriers in the navy, (I wore a red shirt on the Enterprise and lived to tell about it) and have been doing various engineering jobs (simulation, software, communications) for almost 17 years.

I now work in UAV's which is at least aviation - so I'm getting closer to space...

anyway,its a half formed idea at this point - talking about building and running big machines is my particular interest - I'm hoping somebody else wants to join in - and maybe we'll see all the other things talked about, engineering and not, that we'd need to move to the stars.

Maggie | June 16, 2007 7:59 AM

Re: mucho rain

Are you in Texas?

Re: hospital

You GO girl!!!

Posted by: Don | June 16, 2007 7:10 PM

Don:
Yep. East Texas, surrounded by lots of wet piney woods. :)

I didn't know about the hospital bit until my father had talked to the principal the second time round.
Seems as though I may have done some damage to her wind pipe.
/cough cough

I would hope that someone trained in physical defense would describe the quality of fierceness

a few anecdotes (the quality)

Just this week my wife gave our miniature Dachshund a bath, and in the drying off process rubbed her back and forth -- this brought forth a growl, and as it did not stop, a full attack with all teeth showing ensued

gentleness from us was then in full display -- and she weights just ten lbs
===========
so I wonder how it is that such fierceness has been subdued in the human animal, particularily the female
======
my granddaughter Autumn was in the fifth grade and was refusing to go to school because a boy was teasing her unmercifully -- I said, Autumn, when I was in the second grade, I teased a girl, Darlene, unmercifully until one afternoon after school, she turned and hit me a devastating blow, crushing me beyond belief.

The next day Autumn's mother reported her visit, with Autumn, to the principals office -- Per her mother, she creamed him in the cafeteria line

no more trouble in the fifth (and six) grade

Look what you miss on a Saturday afternoon.
The Monster is on a roll!
Epistemology and macro-political philosophy.
Go, Monster, Go!

Bill, I love the shining city. It's bright, it sits high above the clouds of emotion on a rock-solid foundation of logic, reaching ever upward and lifting our hearts with it. And best of all, it's futuristic the way I used to envision futuristic until George Lucas made the future look all dirty. (Whatever became of your science fiction film?)

About all I am capable of is coaching basketball...

Which among the great minds here doesn't amount to much.

But I'd like to be a loyal citizen...

"About all I am capable of is coaching basketball..." - Nigel

Oh ya, that doesn't amount to much at all. Just teaching people the discipline needed to build skills they didn't know they had. Giving people the experience and the wits to know when to take a shot and when to defer personal glory for the sake of the team.

Teach people that if something's worth having it's worth earning, that a lot of talent and a little training can get it's butt kicked by a little talent and a lot of training.

Teach people that playing by the rules is the only way to know who the winners are, because it's the rules that define the kind of game it is. Teach people they can often learn more about themselves by how they handle losing than how they handle winning.

Add to this the fact that some of your players will choke up with tears decades later when teaching their own kids to play as they remember the occassional kind word and encouragement from you. Ok, that stuff you may never hear about, but it happens.

Yup, can't see how any of that will help people later in life.

Bwaahahhaa! Welcome to Ejectia!

Teach people ..., that a lot of talent and a little training can get it's butt kicked by a little talent and a lot of training.

Isn't that what happened on Star Trek between Kirk and Kahn?

I got my bullying to stop because I went into the martial arts and learned how to fight - once you put a few of them down the rest leave you alone.

Actually, I was going to suggest that giving everyone Martial Arts training - the type that's heavy in the discipline and control, and makes it clear that fighting is only a last resort - would be a good start on reducing bullying. Having control over yourself is helpful in many areas. However, I agree that after the bullying starts, the only way to stop it is to paste them in the puss.

Monopticus, sounds like you're following the same road as me, though you're a bit further on perhaps. I'm progressing through an aerospace degree, at the uni of glasgow, in order to try and do my part for the space program. My fondest wish was always to stand on another planet, and when I realised it wasn't going to happen, I figured the best way to give "never" the finger was to make it happen myself.

I tried astrophysics first, but... MAN is it pointless. Sorry for any astrophysicists here, but does it not rankle you that you could spend your entire life working on a theory, only to publish and find someone else has been working on a theory which directly contradicts yours, both are mutually exclusive and humanity will likely never be able to prove between them, or even if either of them is right. And no material benefit will ever be gained irrespective.

Utterly destroyed my motivation for the subject. Engineering on the other hand, you can see results, and know you've done something worthwhile.

Plus, engineering is firmly grounded in rationality. Scientists can mess around with "ignoring statistical anomalies" or politicizing over definitions in total contradiction to the actual scientific method, but engineers rarely have such a luxury. The consequences are usually... impressive. I once heard a scientist describe the difference between scientists and engineers as "Engineers hate surprises, we love 'em" This is quite likely true, from an engineers point of view surprises are usually bad: "Ah, the wing has just fallen off! Surprise!" "Oh, the engines blown up! Surprise!" "$�"*(@^%$! There's an asteroid headed directly at us, the wings have fallen off and all the engines have blown up! I hate surprises!!!"

The UN mandate on how likely global warming is down to man-made causes? The wording put it as along the lines of "Highly likely". I read a footnote somewhere which stated it would have been worded even stronger, as "Almost certain" but, and remember this is a coalition of scientists, discussing a scientific matter with import to the entire world, but the chinese delegation objected.

Correct me if I'm wrong (but politely), but shouldn't scientific definitions be independent from human preference? Isn't the entire foundation a search for what IS, rather than what we'd LIKE? Some scientists these days seem more inclined to advocate that far from a spade being a spade, it's really a fruit. The definition would have been more strongly worded as stating it's a banana, but the chinese delegation resisted...

Wow, not only a rant, but off topic too. Um, bullying. Don't think it only happens to kids. Challenger blew up because the engineers were bullied into not vetoing the launch strongly enough by their managers. It was coming up to contract renewal time, y'see...

Elydo, we'd need to wait for a better time and place to address this more fully, but one correction I would volunteer is that it was coalitions of mostly politicians and bureaucrats that produced the UN IPCC 'Summary for Policymakers' reports that have been in the news recently. A scientist never needs to say 'almost certain' because he can point to reproducible results to do the talking for him. A politician says 'almost certain' and your first priority should be hiding your wallet.

Ideally, politics may operate via consensus, but science doesn't. Anyone saying there's a consensus on all this is playing the politician. Scientific consensus is an oxymoron. If it's science, it doesn't depend on a consensus, and if it depends on consensus, it's not science.

It's one thing to argue that science should be conducted according to the scientific method. It's another to ask that politicians be held to the same standard. Not that I wouldn't like to see it, but if we want these two groups to stay off each other's turf, we need to keep them clear ourselves. (I hope this came off as polite but I admit having my own pet peeves about politicians and scientists alike forgetting what their day jobs are).

Good morning all.
It's a quiet Sunday here,
the rain has ceased for a bit.
Although there was lightning
playing in the clouds a bit earlier.

Discipline emanating through
body language in many cases will discourage a lot of potential bullying.
Carrying oneself tall, upright with self respect has a way of
letting the one eyeballing you
to not go there.

Elydo, welcome to the club ..both engineering and ejectia.

Unfortunately global warming is going the way that many govt sponsored research projects do, everyone says its all man made, because the funding is available for people who can "prove" its man made. I have a friend who calls it the "research industrial complex". Bussard's article talked about how he had trouble because he didn't pursue the tokamak "magnetic containment" route and in govt sponsored fusion research "everybody knows" you HAVE to have magnetic containment (thats why we hear it in sci fi all the time , too) even though it has never worked and always failed for exactly the same reasons. (Conspiracy theorists believe the Soviets "gave" us Tokamek back in the 1960's so we'd fail)

Brings to mind an old Lakota Indian saying... "when riding a dead horse, dismount"..

but often that's not what happens when politics and money are at stake. (as a rule - there are always exceptions of course, war is usually a good motivator to make things work right)

Kind of like why every NASA space transport proposal looks like Apollo or the shuttle, because "everybody knows" thats how you go into space, and no other idea will get funded. (and we got Apollo, which WAS a clean sheet of paper from Gemini and Mercury because of the cold war space race - it probably would never have happened without the Soviets to compete against)

As for global warming...

Of COURSE temps are changing , we're uncertain as to how much and for how long until relatively recently. Of COURSE CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but greenhouse effect mostly means temps are stable, as well as "warmer", just ask anyone who has camped in the desert about 80 degree swings from night and day, in the desert there is little water vapor, the most important greenhouse gas. It CAN get out of control, On Venus, the temps are balmy in the mid to high 800's and only differ on average by four degrees from winter at the poles to summer at the equator, but then, our atmosphere ins't made primarily of sulphuric acid and we're half again as far away from the sun.

I watch planetary science and there is heating on Neptune, Mars and Jupiter, too. That points to a significant solar contribution. If you strip away the politically motivated data fudging, anthropogenic sources account for somewhere between 2% and 60% of the total effect (we don't really know how much) we're not sure how it will change if we change CO2 output, we don't know how high it could go, we don't know what else is going on...there are a lot of unanswered questions. Way too many to take a drastic policy action... but none of which are politically useful, and thus will not likely get asked. Let me do to the data what often happens in politics and I can "prove" trees cause global warming.

I remember reading a transcript from a congressional hearing...some Critter said "we don't debate gravity and we don't debate global warming, its settled science" ...unfortunately, there is no such thing, science is never "right" it is always just less wrong than it was. We debate gravity everyday...the Hubble telescope starts a new debate on gravity with every discovery. E does not equal MC2, it "almost" equals MC2 , and it's close enough to build nuclear weapons, but if we want to build something else, we're going to have to have another debate on science to find out more exactly what "E" does equal.

and as another strange aside - in astronomy as a career field- the cosmologists/astrophysicists are the top of the heap, because their field is the most arcane , even though no one is likely to see anything from it for centuries. Planetary scientists are considered the bottom rung, and they are the ones with potential answers to global warming, increasing natural resources through mining, population management through colonization, etc - all the solutions to real problems.

Its funny how the world often works for exactly opposite the reason you think it does - thats what engineering has taught me.

Good luck!

* all units in US or British Imperial :-)

Rickbert, thanks for the encouragement. I'll try to keep up...

monopticus,
RE: scientific funding,
I can't remember exactly where I saw it, one of the anti-GW documentaries I think, but one of the contributors made that point. If you want a grant to study the squirrels of Central Park your proposal will have a much better chance of approval if phrased as "to study the effects of GW on the squirrels of Central Park"

Yeah, I've heard about that warming happening on other planets in the solar system, too, and how it may be related to sunspot/solar flare activity. Two points I think may be germane here:
/
1) When I was a kid, they were talking about the possibility of another ice age, because the world was cooling. Then, in the early 70's, there was a major surge in sunspot activity, big enough that it was all over the news, every night, the way global warming is today, complete with worry about what the long-term effects might be. By the late 70's/early 80's, they were starting to worry about global warming. To me, the leap of logic wasn't rocket science. I was in my 20's, but still pretty much a kid in a lot of ways, and that seemed cut and dried. Global cooling, then major sunspot activity, then global warming. QED.
/
2) Recently, I saw a video on YouTube, of all places, where British scientists went about systematically debunking the anthropogenic theory. They showed how they studied core samples to determine what the mean temperature was at various times in the past - and I'm talking paleontology here - and they found the same cycles of planet-wide warming and cooling. For those that occurred after the advent of writing, there are correlating written records, though, of course, those people had no clue what they were witnessing, only that winters were getting progressively fiercer/milder. There were also astologers'/astronomers' notes in the late Middle Ages and during the Renaissance that recorded observations of activity on the sun. The correlation between warming and increased sunspot activity was just too clear to be ignored.
/
Another avenue they investigated was any possible correlation between human activity and warming/cooling. What they found was a direct slap in the face to the anthropogenesis proponents: During the most pollution-generating periods in recent history (the Industrial Revolution, World War II), global temperatures were dropping. Noting that, during the same periods, GNP in most countries was rising, they went back to earlier periods and examined financial records. Even before the Industrial Revolution, business was always better during cooling cycles. Then they checked our current cycle. From WWII to the late 60's, most countries were in an economic boom. When that sunspot activity I mentioned earlier happened, the US, at least, was hit with one of the worst recessions since the Great Depression.
/
To me, that, too, seems cut and tried. Just think about your own reactions to the seasons. During the hottest part of the summer, most people start feeling draggy and really don't want to do much of anything. (I note myself that even air conditioning doesn't seem to help much.) Then fall comes, and with it that brisk, cooling air, and all of a sudden we're bursting with energy.
/
My own personal conclusion from all this is that anthropogenesis is closer to the 2% end of that range Monopticus mentioned.
/
End of rant. ;D

The one who pops a bully in the nose does a great service to at least two people.

The one that does the popping gets a bully off their butt.

The bully begins the process of learning that their bullying will result in uncomfortable consequences for his/herself. Bullies are 99% cowards, and will almost always back down.

monopticus,
"E does not equal MC2, it 'almost' equals MC2..."
Thanks for the education. I forgot all about that since school, and I would be very interested in learning more. Stop on over at The Lounge sometime. Unquiet Mind is buying the next round.

If this is any indication of the discussions that lay ahead, we are all going to have a great time. And if we are not too careful, we will all be much wealthier and wiser for the experience.

The Monster-

I'll go you one further than that. Language is even more important for cognition than for communication.

Here's a nice quote about that.

"It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy books and by eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case. Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them."
-Alfred North Whitehead, in An Introduction to Mathematics, 1911

It is the naming of such an extended collection of operations that allows us to think about it effectively -- to think about one label rather than the lower-level details of which the labeled collection consists.

The Monster-

It's about building up the people who "get it" so they can have as much influence as possible over those who don't get it yet, and defend against the outright enemies of civilization. It's about getting as many people as possible to understand why certain basic principles are fundamental to the function of an economy above (if you're lucky) subsistence hunting and gathering with simple hand-made tools, and that every time they are violated, the fabric of society is weakened.

If we do that, the elections will take care of themselves.

Exactly.

monopticus-

anyway,its a half formed idea at this point - talking about building and running big machines is my particular interest - I'm hoping somebody else wants to join in - and maybe we'll see all the other things talked about, engineering and not, that we'd need to move to the stars.

I like stars, and space travel.

Maggie | June 16, 2007 8:12 PM

Ah. East Texas. Green. Piney woods.

As opposed to West Texas. Desert. Cacti.

Still and all, any Texas is better than no Texas. I wouldn't mind being in the Hill Country some where around Austin myself. Too much good music going on there!

Why you're only a hop, skip and a jump from Colorado. Come on up! (just wait until I'm back out there)

BTW: If you would be so kind as to send some of that rain to Nawth Carolina, all us would appreciate it!

JMC

The trick about global warming, as far as I'm aware, is that on a global scale changes made over a course of a few years then take many more years to affect the climate. A ballpark figure I've been told is that it takes about 200 years for any change to manifest.

If this is the case, and it would appear reasonable, it means all these "Cut carbon emissions" measures which are so in vouge these days are pretty useless, any change that's going to happen over the next two centuries or so will happen regardless of any measures being taken today. Instead, given that global warming IS happening on some scale, whether due to man's influence or not, we should be trying to work out measures to adapt to the changing climate.

Anyone seeing that being screamed about? No? Might be because that would involve telling the masses what they might not want to hear, that harsh measures might be necessary.

Global warming was an issue when I was still in school, the argument given by my geography teacher still holds true today; take a look at how much gunk a volcano spews out, per day, compared to the entirety of man's contribution, tally up how many volcano's there are erupting in the world at any one time, then see if you can still blame mankind for global warming. A god and salient argument, but it does miss one aspect I only found out about a short while ago, that the global emission and uptake are finely balanced. Greenhouse gas emissions through natural causes are generally in the same order as greenhouse gas uptake by natural causes. The argument of the article I read this in was therefore that human emissions were the straw that broke the camels back, but something about such an argument just doesn't hold true. If humans have been adding a relatively tiny addition to the global paradigm, over the course of a few decades, not even centuries, how is it we can still be responsible for the 'sudden' onset given the aforementioned point of any changes taking centuries to manifest?

Another interesting point I encountered recently was made by the author John Ringo, on his site. He mentioned during one of his articles that there is a problem with all of the models currently used for predicting climate change, namely that they don't work in reverse. This is a very good point, we know what happened in the past, we can use this as a test to see if the models predicting catastrophe in the future are reliable. All of them fail this test, starting from today and running them backwards, none of them give what actually happened. Starting in the past and running them forward to today, with the readings taken throughout that period of time, they all fail, in some cases showing the onset of another ice age already. I don't know about you guys, but here in scotland, SCOTLAND, we've been wanting AC for the last few weeks.

Don,
West Texas is semi-arid; one step above desert. They've got cacti and mesquite and tumbleweeds.

Thanks for the shout-out, Maggie. I wondered why it was all cold and dark on that other thread.

I'm thinking of applying for the post of Village Idiot. Is it spoken for?

S. Weasel,
Let's just say that it looks like the upcoming presidential election; there are a number of people vying for the job with no clear front-runner.

Is there an opening for
Beserkers? :)

I'm not qualified to talk about the science of global warming, but I understand the mindset of believers. It's not hard to know them when you live in a community where every other car is a rolling billboard for politically correct ideology. Hysteria, conspiracy theory, and BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) walk hand-in-hand in this crowd. It's all of a piece, and they would gladly march modernity off a cliff given a chance. This might be the first time in history that a civilization embraces cultural suicide as an end worthy of consideration. Or maybe it's just the logical outcome of the socialist nanny-state. Peter Singer would have us all euthanized like so many unwanted mutts at the pound. The psychosis of self-loathing must be fought because the logical outcome is too horrific to contemplate. Idiot ideologies eventually die of thier own lies and false assumptions, but not before millions are sacrificed on bonfires built by human stupidity. It's all self-inflicted when logic is absent and courage fails to defend that which is noble, truthful and good. Old story, new chapter. The fight is worthy of our best efforts. Let the three-hundred who defended Western Civilization at the Gates of Hell provide the inspiration for our cause. "Give them nothing, but take from them everything." Metaphor has its uses. Stand forth and be counted. Ad Astra!

daddyquatro | June 17, 2007 2:42 PM

I'm assuming you speak from experience while the last time I was in West Texas was many years ago. I stand corrected.

Mesquite is good. For smoking meat anyway. Tumbleweeds I'm not to sure about...

S. Weasel, to the extent Ejectia has a provisional government, daddyquatro is the reigning Court Jester/Village Idiot.

I tried a minor Palace Coup recently, in an attempt to wrest the title of Village Idiot from his hands (he was wearing multiple hats, and the Village Idiot one had shiny buttons!) but failed. I do seem to have been allowed the position of 3rd Assistant Lackey to daddyquatro, which, for any Village Idiot worth his salt, must be seen as a significant promotion.

Remember the story about the Village Idiot: A man is showing a visiting cousin around the town and they come across the Village Idiot. The man tells his cousin to watch him as he goes up and offers the Village Idiot the choice of a dollar bill or a quarter.

The Village Idiot says, "Ooh! Shiny! I wants the quarter!" A short while later the cousin goes back and speaks to the Village Idiot in private.

"Don't you know that a dollar is worth a lot more than a quarter?" he asks.

"Sure," replies the Village Idiot. "But if I took the dollar, the jig would be up, and they'd stop giving me quarters."

Bravo, Rickbert!
I thought I gave you the shiny hat.
I like this one. The one that says #1 DAD.
It's pretty old, and I screwed up once and wore it while I was changing the oil so it's pretty dirty, but it's still my favorite.

No more rhymes now, I mean it!

Anybody want a peanut?

Meanwhile, Rickbert grabs the proffered hat with the shiny buttons, polishes the nameplate which reads "3rd Assistant Lackey" and goes capering off, holding up the hat and cackling, "Oh, my precious! My precious!"

"3rd Assistant Lackey"?
Naah. Looks too much like someone who drives to Starbuck's for Jessica Simpson's ex.
And "Lap Dog" is right out. "Running Dog" might be pretty cool though. But I'm holding out for "Minion". They get cooler toys to play with, like frickin' laser beams. (It's been suggested that I'm big enough to be a Minyan, but that's another story altogether.)